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50. CloudChronicles of Hisyam: From Offline to Online Learning and the AWS Internship

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Podcast with Hisyam Part 3




Discover the transformative journey from offline to onlinelearning, the power of cloud computing, and the insights gained during an
internship at AWS in this captivating podcast. Join Hisyam as he shares his
firsthand experience navigating the challenges of remote education and explores
the benefits of transparent pricing and workload adaptability in cloud
technology. Dive into the discussion on the importance of certifications and
uncover the differences between online and offline internships. Tune in to gain
valuable insights into continuous learning, communication, and the
ever-evolving world of technology and education.

In this podcast episode, Hisyam discusses the challenges oftransitioning from offline to online learning during the pandemic, emphasizing
the impact on project-based evaluations. He highlights the advantages of cloud
computing, such as transparent pricing and adaptability to workload demands.
Hisyam shares his internship experience at AWS, where he learned about cloud
technology and the importance of certifications. The conversation explores the
differences between online and offline internships, emphasizing the need for
effective communication and organizing offline sessions to foster team rapport.
Overall, the episode emphasizes the significance of continuous learning,
adaptability, and communication in the evolving landscape of technology and

[00:00:00] Andrew Liew: Yeah. Let me ask you interestingquestion is that like when you're in university days, Polytechnical, you
definitely have to learn a few different subjects.

[00:00:07] Andrew Liew: Let's say different subjects aredifferent technologies, text different tools, right? There's definitely no
doubt that university or polytechnics or education or even these days,
organization, they want people to learn. No doubt. But would you always want to
have exam every single day?

[00:00:22] Andrew Liew: No, right? You won't want to haveexam every single day because in the same way, hackathon is just a short, compressed
exam mode for that short span of time. But when you start to work, people want
employees to work longer, longer periods, longer tenure, meaning I don't want
you to work six months and then you go and jump into another company one year,
two years.

[00:00:40] Andrew Liew: There is definitely a need forlearning, but there's also a need for... Right? Appropriate. I call it cadence
or working rhythm. That, there needs to be that balance. In other words if
companies were to focus on Coming to bring along a group of great talents to
solve a problem.

[00:00:58] Andrew Liew: The uncertainty is the [00:01:00] problem Not the tech stack. For example,if you learn english now i'm asking you to go to japan To conduct a business in
japanese. Yes. I want you to learn but to turn around to close a deal in
japanese In 30 days, man, you'll be having a very big difficult time, right?
Because it's a very press compressed pressure But now if I ask you to go to
london to close a business deal in 30 days It's the same idea if you have the
programming language if you're good at flutter I just ask you to instead of
making a chatbot I ask you to use to make a computer vision application because
your stack is there.

[00:01:37] Andrew Liew: So your problem set Is it chatbotor computer vision? But now having, now you have to figure out another tech
stack. You have another subject to learn. What is your view on it?

[00:01:47] Hisyam: Yeah that's a good point. That's agood one. But definitely, that's why I think for, that's why the hackathon
solves, one of the ways that the hackathon is actually, they actually they
actually have that you mentioned [00:02:00]before, they actually have an onboarding process for all participants at the

[00:02:03] Hisyam: At the start, they actually haverecommended tech specs, that they that maybe they are using in the bank, and
they want to see how we do it together as a team. And there are recommended
tech specs that they bring forward that we are recommended to work on.

[00:02:19] Hisyam: So I think before the hackathon theyactually did this, but they also have have an area where they actually
mentioned to us that if we want to work on our own tech stack we are able to do
so let's say, yeah, so to overcome this problem of if five different people
have five different tech stacks we can actually work on our own tech stacks

[00:02:36] Hisyam: It doesn't matter. But what matters isactually communication between the team. Because During the process of
delegation whether are your requirements very specific for example, if you are
leading the team or let's say you are the backend, are your requirements very
specific to whatever app that you are developing that kind of thing.

[00:02:54] Hisyam: For example, each of us can work onour own tech stack, work on our own requirements, and then at the end present
our own [00:03:00] set of Set of requirementsthat we worked on for our own tech stack.

[00:03:03] Andrew Liew: Can I say that, that means theremust be somebody to step up to be the lead, right? And the lead would have to
have a breadth of different tech stack in order to communicate.

[00:03:13] Andrew Liew: To make sure that understandingof communication of the requirement whether like you say it's in Flutter, in
Python, in Angular, front end, back end, is clear. So that the individual
member who take that requirement, he can deploy or execute on his own specific
step and yet fulfill the overall requirement.

[00:03:32] Andrew Liew: Compiled by all the members,correct? Yes,

[00:03:35] Hisyam: yes, but that can only work if eachteam member are very clear on what requirements that they need to need to do or
overcome and if this is if you are given a set of requirements that aren't
clear, or that are not not very specific, then you definitely

[00:03:51] Andrew Liew: will have a lot of questions,right?

[00:03:52] Andrew Liew: Yes, how do you solve that?

[00:03:53] Hisyam: Exactly definitely It's probably aheck of fun. I for example, for me, if I'm unclear the requirements or I'm
clear [00:04:00] of how how are, how is thisparticular API is gonna be integrated with, let's say the the finance that
questions I missed.

[00:04:07] Hisyam: I would actually bring forward thesequestions to the team for discussion. And

[00:04:11] Andrew Liew: Definitely there

[00:04:12] Hisyam: will be different viewpoints for thevarious team members. But I think to pick the best viewpoint with the most
efficient execution at that point of time.

[00:04:21] Hisyam: I think that this is very important.Because sometimes one problem can be solved in a hundred different ways, right?
So the the challenge actually to know or to decide on the best the best
solution. To the problem at that particular point of time, because we do have
lack of time at that point of time.

[00:04:37] Hisyam: And and at the same time, we do haveto work things fast. Any problems that, that we face definitely we have to
communicate with the team. If we face this particular problem get it out there.
Say, okay, so for example I tried this I tried a few solutions, but none of
them are working.

[00:04:52] Hisyam: Do you guys have any any othersolutions that... In your experience who would solve this problem, this to
firstly work on a [00:05:00] problem try tosolve the problem yourself and document the steps. And then, if that doesn't
work out, then just bring forward to the team saying telling them that we'll
bring this I, I tried these few steps.

[00:05:12] Hisyam: First thing you guys know you guyshave you guys know why it's not working. And then if some of them just
communicate with the team because sometimes the team has done things that you
never even thought of. So they will actually give you, maybe there's some of
the stuff that you are doing wrong, so they can correct that.

[00:05:27] Hisyam: But at the same time, if the teamactually knows about this particular way it's not possible to do so to solve
the problem. Then they will actually recommend or they'll actually communicate
with you regarding different solutions or newer solutions to the particular

[00:05:42] Hisyam: Yeah, so I think definitelycommunicating with the team is very important. Just asking the team on a
problem that that you're having difficulty with. And it's also quite, very

[00:05:52] Andrew Liew: At that line because you've donean offline hackathon and online hackathon, what is the difference in the
communication experience?

[00:05:58] Andrew Liew: Because even if you just talk [00:06:00] about the requirements, talk about, let'ssay, the pseudocode, talk about the specific problem steps, how do you feel
what's the feeling in terms of the difference? Tell us a bit more. Yes I, for
offline hackathons, it's easier to... To bring your idea across, or to bring
your problems across.

[00:06:16] Hisyam: Because sometimes you're programmingsomething on a computer and then something goes wrong. Since we are in a
physical space offline you can actually, so for example if you are right in
front of me, I can actually ask you about it. Really fast hey, Andrew I'm
having this problem.

[00:06:28] Hisyam: You want to take a look at it? I'lltry these steps, so it's 30 seconds because you are right there for online, I
think we you need to really go out there to take the initiative to either share
your screen Just pause the team for a while, say that, okay, sorry, I have this
problem can we look at it for a while for five minutes I've tried these steps,
share your screen, and then highlight the portions where you're having problem
with, highlight the key steps or highlight the the error messages that may
appear during that particular problem.

[00:06:57] Hisyam: And to actually communicate [00:07:00] very clear objectives to the team in termsof what do you want what are the, different inputs that you have given the
program and what the expected output and what you're getting right now is how
is it different from the expected output.

[00:07:12] Hisyam: All the various troubleshooting steps.Yeah, so I think definitely for online it takes more initiative to to get your
point across or to, to really to really make your team understand your
questions in a more clear manner. Okay,

[00:07:28] Andrew Liew: Okay, so in other words, inshort, is that there is a difference between online and offline hackathon.

[00:07:33] Andrew Liew: Offline, there's a lot morenuances get communicated across. It is very easy to get your point across for a
specific problem set or specific pseudocode. But as well as for online you have
to make a deliberate effort and shout out so that everybody's attention is on
the same screen, and you have to be very clear and visible on the specific

[00:07:53] Andrew Liew: Okay? Let's talk about the nextinteresting question there. After the hackathons end up... You applied for an [00:08:00] internship and you did an internship atAWS, right? And it's most of your internship in that moment is online, right?
You don't go to the office, correct?

[00:08:08] Hisyam: Correct. So I did my internship backin 2020, early 2020, end of 2020.

[00:08:12] Hisyam: Over there, I think COVID just startedout. Oh! Yeah, and Farfetch was actually during that. Semester before my
internship and halfway through the semester where a lot of cases started
springing up Singapore was having thousand over cases at one time. Yes.

[00:08:27] Hisyam: The semester break at the halfwaythrough the semester actually the check that exams we don't have to actually
sit for exams. All of our grades will be based on the project work that we did
back in the set. Definitely something that That was very different for us
because definitely we we were very used to studying for exams back then,
physical area, physical space, so all of the, so that, that transition towards
offline to online was very I would say a bit more hectic than we expected. Oh.
Back then for the students because definitely it was quite a new norm. For [00:09:00] us to be created just solely based

[00:09:01] Andrew Liew: on projects. Tell us more aboutlike, how you feel and how your friends feel about that sudden transition.

[00:09:06] Andrew Liew: What goes into your head for me,

[00:09:08] Hisyam: I actually felt aesthetic. Because forme, I prefer applying my learning through projects. I prefer for me, I'm a very
hands on person. So I prefer project work as compared to studying for exams all
that. Theoretical memorization normal way of examinations. For me, I prefer
more to project work. So definitely I was very excited. Because I think mostly
for university studies, I do better in I perform better in project. Definitely
for me, I, during that particular semester where we are slowly graded just on
projects, I actually did better.

[00:09:41] Hisyam: perform fairly better than the rest ofthe semester. And I think for me and my friends we, during that point of time
we actually had more time to explore so for example, after the semester, so
most of us actually could spend more time actually going for interviews for
various internship companies.

[00:09:58] Hisyam: Spend more time learning a [00:10:00] lot of skill sets doing I think a lot ofus know when we quit. Record doing all the problems problem statements over
there. Just grinding all these critical questions to prepare for the
interviews. I think most of it was more like a blessing in disguise back then,
because it was quite hectic.

[00:10:15] Hisyam: I know you, even if we had exams, itwould be it'll be more hectic for us like that. So I think definitely for me
and my friends, we were quite thankful that they decided to actually do change
the curriculum. To not have exams back then. Plus he actually helped us to
actually prepare better prepare for us for the interviews, respect companies
for internship.

[00:10:34] Andrew Liew: What about friends who loveexams? How do they feel? Yes. So

[00:10:39] Hisyam: for friends who, who love exams, Ithink they it's actually they actually felt quite set that they couldn't do it
the normal way. Especially for for. A lot of these students who love
theoretical theoretical way of examination, I think definitely they were quite
sad to actually get graded just solely on, on project work, yeah, so that's why
[00:11:00] after that I think they theytransitioned because it was a bit too fast transition. So they actually, the
next few semesters, they actually... Who in the process of trans transitioning
back to physical exams because a lot of these a lot of the students who are who
don't love project or who perform better in exams they actually the school
curriculum actually have to adapt to their style too.

[00:11:21] Hisyam: So definitely it was a very newexperience for them. Yeah. Bank that.

[00:11:26] Andrew Liew: And do they express mental stressbecause there's that sudden change in life, right? Those kids that love exams,
suddenly they realize they have to pay some project which they are not strong
in. How do you help them or have you ever even offered them advice for I... For
me and my friends, mostly we prefer project work to apply our learning on
projects, rather than physical exams. But I think for these people I've only
met one of them. I don't think it's much more on mental stress or things like

[00:11:55] Hisyam: But whether back then. Becausedefinitely if we were being graded on projects[00:12:00]definitely spend more time doing a more well polished project to to submit. And
the school was actually quite kind to actually give us extensions to a lot of
the project works back then.

[00:12:10] Hisyam: Because the transition was actuallyreally fast. They actually gave us some kick room. To actually play around and
to actually polish our projects further before submission. Yeah, so I think
school also plays quite a the management of the school also plays quite a huge
role in letting students to adapt to the new norm.

[00:12:29] Andrew Liew: Yeah. Okay, so continue back witha part of that transition, you were doing projects, and then how do you you
eventually applied for AWS, you did hackathons, you loved the culture. And now
that you go in, and you realize that it's a digital online internship compared
to your poly days when you have IBM, it's an offline internship.

[00:12:48] Andrew Liew: How is it different, or tell usmore about it, yeah, so for my internship in, in, in AWS there was, for me
personally, Tor was a brand new thing for me back then. And so when I [00:13:00] first came there was a lot of things tolearn there's a lot of certifications to... to do also. For example for me, I
learned a lot on the automation technologies with services like that, such as
Lambda Service Manager, and also S3 and EC2, so all these automation services.

[00:13:15] Hisyam: So I have to learn read up more on thedocumentation. To the audience out there who are very new and keen to know
these terms, like you talk about EC2, S3 buckets Lambda. What are these? Are
these a concept under AWS cloud? Is it a helping people to build an application
on cloud?

[00:13:32] Andrew Liew: Or what is cloud to the kids outthere?

[00:13:34] Hisyam: Yeah cloud is actually a these areactually services that AWS offers. Chalk is actually something that is new to a
lot of us out there. Because traditionally, before Chalk was there, or before
the popularity of Chalk became apparent.

[00:13:48] Hisyam: Previously we were doing, so forexample, an example would be uploading a website to doing a particular website.
So we would, back then we would program it in HTML and CSS via JavaScript for
the functions. And then [00:14:00] for, we hadto actually have a database. Such as MySQL or SQL, Microsoft SQL Server, or

[00:14:06] Hisyam: And so for let's see, those are SQLdatabases. But there are also no SQL databases, such as back then there was
Google, I think they had there are no SQL databases for Google. But for for
AWS, actually, called DynamoDB, are no SQL databases. A lot of this back then
we had to actually couple this together get a web hosting company pay them and
upload our site based on cPanel or if you were doing Linux there was also
cPanel over there.

[00:14:34] Hisyam: All of these are actually individualcomponents you sign up for a web hosting company an individual web hosting
company. You wanted to... actually do storage. They do offer some storage
services also for these web service companies. But all the pricing was actually
not the same throughout the the various web service web hosting companies.

[00:14:55] Hisyam: So sometimes you may find out thatfind ourselves transitioning between one service [00:15:00]provider to another because sometimes they can be cheaper and we have to move
it maybe year on year and web hosting companies were actually charging. Their
pricing model was actually quite different back then.

[00:15:10] Hisyam: They were actually charging sometimesper month, and you actually pay more per month. If you wanted to actually get
billed monthly, you actually had to pay more month on month, as compared to if
you want to actually do it the whole year.

[00:15:22] Andrew Liew: So for example... Hold on to thatfirst. So for the audience out there...

[00:15:25] Andrew Liew: Let them try to understand thedifference between non cloud and cloud. Am I right to say that let's say in the
old days where, just do a very simple example. A mom and pop shop they, let's
say they sell washing clothes services or sell a McDonald burger. And if
there's somebody wants to buy it, they have to set up an e commerce website,

[00:15:42] Andrew Liew: And then you have a front end.And you have to host it on a server or a computer, right? And it has to be at a
specific place, let's say the office, right? A server in an office and it's
fixed. So anybody that goes through the internet, they have to host it in a
specific location. Now let's come back to the [00:16:00]cloud.

[00:16:00] Andrew Liew: It is almost everywhere in theworld. If one, somebody wants to buy let's say a clothes from let's say India,
they can host a server in India. Even though they are in America, right? Am I
right to say that? That's the one of the major difference between a non cloud
and cloud. Yes, that's

[00:16:17] Hisyam: right, yeah.

[00:16:18] Hisyam: And I think one of the differenceactually the for for cloud computing it's actually, it actually enables a very
transparent pricing model as compared to the traditional pricing models offered
by these various hosting services. Yeah, so they're very transparent on and
it's the same pricing model throughout.

[00:16:37] Hisyam: For all customers so you don'tactually have to and they actually offer some of the services they actually
offer the cheapest as compared to industry wide services. For example, like
data storage S3 it actually pays a few cents on a few for a few gigabytes of
storage, those are the cheaper storage solution out there.

[00:16:53] Hisyam: And then, for example, forvirtualization I think the key point of cloud is actually A, for what you use.
I think that's [00:17:00] actually the, one ofthe key factors of why what we the Python model is very transparent, and you
can actually get a lot of services under one roof.

[00:17:09] Hisyam: Yeah, so for example, you don't haveto search for, or you don't have to actually decouple your pricing strategy to
various hosting services.

[00:17:18] Andrew Liew: Okay let's give another exampleto the audience out there. Like for transparent pricing or... For understanding
about you pay for what it uses.

[00:17:27] Andrew Liew: So let's go back to the exampleof that mom and pop shop of the old servers and the cloud, right? So in the old
days if you want to buy hosting services, you have to buy the bandwidth
services, and it now may come with a package, right? And this package, let's
say, I don't know, just to give an example, let's say 10 gigabytes of and then
you also have this thing called the bandwidth, which is how many people can go
onto your site, correct?

[00:17:49] Andrew Liew: And then this is typically, let'ssay, just make a simple numerical example, 50 per month. So it's only
specifically to 10 gigabytes to, let's say, 100 people going to your website to
buy. When [00:18:00] suddenly there's 1, 000people going to your website to buy, then you have to buy a bigger package. But
then if the next month...

[00:18:07] Andrew Liew: Only 20 people go to your websiteto buy, you are stuck with that 1, 000 people per site service, correct? You
see that? But as for transparent pricing or cloud if every single person that
comes in to buy on your website, you are charged on that single instance cost.
Am I able in other words, you have more flexibility on a unit pricing model
relative to a package tier pricing model.

[00:18:30] Andrew Liew: Am I able to say that? Correct.

[00:18:31] Hisyam: Yes. And also, I think one of theadvantages of pay for what you use is like what you mentioned before, is
actually to adapt. I think the pricing to your workload, so for example like
you mentioned before this particular one of the top shop, they actually have
000 customers or 10, 000 visits in January, they have 10, 000 visits, but in
February, because of the viral marketing campaigns, maybe they have a hundred
thousand visits or hundred thousand new user accounts.

[00:18:58] Hisyam: They are visiting their site [00:19:00] every day, every single day. Definitelythe transition firstly, I think the transition of the workload. For example if
their site can handle ten thousand users at the current moment it doesn't mean
that their site can handle hundred thousand users in the future.

[00:19:12] Hisyam: I think one of the one of the beautyabout, of child services actually, you can actually do, or you can actually
adapt your workload to various situations. For example, you can actually do a
auto scaling for your different servers within your virtual project cloud.

[00:19:26] Hisyam: And over there, so for example ifsuddenly skills immensely, let's say your user base skills immensely, and your
workload skills immensely for month on month you can actually adapt to that in
with the cloud easier than through

[00:19:38] Andrew Liew: the, through the traditionalways.

[00:19:39] Andrew Liew: Okay, talking about that,interesting question I asked for the audience out there, okay. Let's say, live
in a traditional model where they have a single server and they buy and
package, like you say, 10, 000 user, say in the following month, 100, 000 user.
What happened if they, in that scenario, that people are stuck with that model?

[00:19:55] Andrew Liew: What is it like for the mom andpop who runs that e commerce shop [00:20:00]after the 11, 000 user come on board? What happened to the website? Yeah, so I

[00:20:04] Hisyam: think it would the servers may not beable to handle such a huge huge workload. Yeah.

[00:20:10] Andrew Liew: So what does it mean for the mindpop shop when he goes to the website?

[00:20:13] Andrew Liew: Does the 11,000 customer can callthis man pop shop? Hey, I cannot go to your website, is it something like that?
So it may be that their site may

[00:20:21] Hisyam: be very slow to load because of theimmense workload that they may have. So you affects the user experience, or
user end user experience of their customers visiting a website.

[00:20:30] Hisyam: So this. This this will mean that alot of users would have would face in the slow low time. You at all at some
point of time. So what they have to do is actually this month, they actually
have to buy more bandwidth or buy buy a more expensive plan with more bandwidth
for them to actually increase this particular usage at a point of time.

[00:20:52] Andrew Liew: Can you give me an example ofwhat is slow? Because these days, everything is slow. So what do you mean?
The... Is it like one hour or [00:21:00] oneday like the 11th? 11, 000 customer when they go on to a site which is 10, 000
in a traditional model. How slow would it be?

[00:21:08] Hisyam: So for yeah, so I think you'reactually you are actually asking on how How ideally how fast should a website
load, right? Yeah, obviously the ideal situation in the cloud environment for
people Because it's just to give you an idea because people always take for
granted like people like I want to build a website a an Amazon.

[00:21:27] Andrew Liew: I want to build a website aFacebook Because Facebook Amazon are cloud right and they're instantly fast
like a few seconds people don't feel it But when people use a traditional
website a traditional way, they're like what it's five minutes and it hasn't
even load the page Is that what you call slow?

[00:21:44] Andrew Liew: I don't know.

[00:21:45] Hisyam: Yeah, so I think you I think some ofthe companies are actually doing research on this, on website load times. But I
think the rule of thumb is actually, if I think it was more

[00:21:54] Andrew Liew: to 10 seconds, I'm not sure ofthis figure, but

[00:21:56] Hisyam: We can confirm that but I think it wasif [00:22:00] the website doesn't look for, oris unresponsive for 5 to 10 seconds, then the person will just leave the site.

[00:22:06] Hisyam: Definitely. Especially with theattention economy that we have now it's getting the patients of website
business are getting lower by the day. So definitely, if we do need millisecond
efficiency or. Very fast website and then it comes with a lot of infrastructure
and the back end

[00:22:24] Andrew Liew: So yeah, so to the folks outthere audience who want to run an e commerce shop like I mean I was
transitioning to digitization I said the US AWS e commerce before cloud they
will be thinking the traditional way of thinking.

[00:22:37] Andrew Liew: Okay. I run a physical shop theguy the customer that comes in walk by Two or three minutes, I don't even serve
him because I'm busy serving my other customer. It's okay, he can wait two or
three minutes. But on the real world, in the digital e commerce, like you say,
if the guy stays on a website for ten seconds, and it doesn't refresh, doesn't
go to the checkout, he will just close the website, right?

[00:22:57] Andrew Liew: So that means to the mom and popshop, [00:23:00] he is losing money on 12, 000,13, 000 customers. Am I right So in

[00:23:04] Hisyam: User retention. Yeah, definitely, andjust right now a lot of us the patients for unresponsive applications on
websites it's really not there. So I think you'll be you'll be criticalized
more especially in this age and time,

[00:23:20] Andrew Liew: yeah. Okay, so coming back tothanks for sharing all these concepts to the audience out there because they're
learning as we speak coming back to that internship where you were learning
about cloud technology and how many certificates are there in AWS and how many
certificates you have to take to do your internship. Yeah,

[00:23:38] Hisyam: so there isn't really a a hard rule totake any certificate during internship because we are all learning getting
guidance from the seniors, getting guidance from the, our managers, our mentors
there isn't really a hard rule to take, but in total there are around 12
certificates that you can take.

[00:23:55] Hisyam: So it goes from the very basic jobpractitioner to the So the associate [00:24:00]and professional level certifications. At that you, you do have, those are the
basic ones, but you do have specialty certifications in machine learning, in
networking also. Yeah, so those are the extra certificates that you could take
to actually improve yourself in those areas.

[00:24:15] Hisyam: And to learn something new. I thinkdefinitely there are...

[00:24:17] Hisyam: I'm not sure if there are morecertificates by the day. I don't need to consult. But definitely with more
areas of tech springing up, I think definitely you can see that in the future
there may be more certificates popping up here and there. But yeah

[00:24:27] Andrew Liew: So during your internship howmany certificates you took up or you voluntarily learned in order to be able to
do the job do the internship, yeah, so I think

[00:24:36] Hisyam: For internship, the certificates arenot that mandatory to actually do well in the job because we are all learning
at that point of time. For for internship wise... We it was actually quite a
very independent and open industry and where we recommended or we recommended
to take as much as we can the certificates, but for example, for that and at
the same time to handle the volume that we [00:25:00]have with the various clients or the various requirements that you need to meet
the certificates are actually just an extra an extract thing that that we are
recommended to have.

[00:25:08] Hisyam: So it's not mandatory for instance.Yeah. But I think for full-timers there, there is a gpi that we are, they need
to for, in terms of the application because it's it's database we specialize in
cloud. Cloud services. So definitely we have to things are always changing.

[00:25:22] Hisyam: We actually have every single yearduring the during the cloud events during AWS. Reinvent they actually have a
lot of new developers upcoming and it's always good to really refresh the
various new services that may come to, to better.

[00:25:37] Hisyam: To better fit to client requirements.So I think definitely new services popping up every now and then. And we are
always recommended to actually take we can. Yeah, but it's not a mandatory requirement.
Yeah, we can actually, we can also focus on other side projects.

[00:25:52] Hisyam: We can also focus on other networkingopportunities thing for an internship. But we always highly recommend that

[00:25:58] Andrew Liew: you actually take as much as youcan. [00:26:00] Coming back to that questionabout, how is it different from an online internship with it could be any
company, but I just tell you what happened with AWS.

[00:26:07] Andrew Liew: And then compared to an offlineinternship with IBM what's the difference in terms of the experience in
general? Yeah. Definitely, there's the challenge to do online internships is
actually again communications. Because, yeah communications is actually a very
important role.

[00:26:22] Hisyam: Because we're not physically inoffice, so definitely getting that I think getting that energy up is always a
challenge getting that the rapport of the team, getting that energy of the team
always keeping that up is actually quite quite a challenge also.

[00:26:36] Hisyam: And I think, because for me, for doingthe the Airbus internship it's not

[00:26:41] Andrew Liew: fully online for the first fewmonths it was, but after transitioning, so during the mid mid internship
checkups. We actually get to go back to office and communicate with the clients
meet the team proper and go for lunch, go for dinners, dinners together.

[00:26:55] Hisyam: And over there, I think it's also veryimportant to have offline sessions. [00:27:00]For example, online online sessions may take up most of the time. Like online
meetings it can take up most of the time for you have catch up sessions during
maybe two, two times a week at a point of time.

[00:27:11] Andrew Liew: So the offline, there's alsooffline session in the online internship with AWS la, right? Correct. Yes.

[00:27:17] Hisyam: It's called because interns wereencouraged to actually organize our own meet up sessions. Oh. Offline with or
large lectures to get to know each other better. Yeah. So I think that it's
also very important each.

[00:27:28] Hisyam: Work from home in the age of onlineonline working or studying. I think it's very important to have also offline
sessions to actually get to meet these these colleagues or students in person.
And for you to really get to know get to know them better face to face rather

[00:27:45] Hisyam: Just online yeah definitely there's alot of offline sessions also and a lot of team business. Yeah, so this would
actually bridge the gap between the online and offline. You get to know the
personality of the team more in, in [00:28:00]in that, in those offline sessions.

[00:28:01] Hisyam: But also I think one good thing wasactually during my internship every single week. We have a day that the whole
team actually meets together online. And we actually either play some games, do
some rapport that one hour of maybe the first hour discussing about work. And
then, or the first half an hour discussing about work.

[00:28:19] Hisyam: The second half an hour is more toplaying a bit of drawing big games for to know the team a few of the teammates
that will organize this game. And then at the start of the team meeting we can
share more about how our, how has our day been, what are some of our hobbies
that we've done.