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62. The Essence of Humanity: Challenging AI's Promise of Happiness with Denis Rothman

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Podcast with Denis Rothman Part 3



Discover the profound insights of Denis Rothman in Part 3of the podcast as he challenges the notion that artificial intelligence can
guarantee happiness and replace human essence. Delve into the discussion on the
role of large language models, the distinction between creativity and
happiness, and the potential risks of a technology-dependent society. Gain a fresh
perspective on AI-generated artwork and its limitations in capturing the
essence of human expression. Join this thought-provoking conversation that
explores the importance of human connections and self-reliance in an
increasingly automated world.

In Part 3 of the podcast with Denis Rothman, the discussionexplores the role of large language models and their impact on human creativity
and happiness. Denis emphasizes that while AI tools enhance efficiency, they do
not guarantee happiness or replace human essence. He distinguishes between
being creative and being happy, highlighting the importance of human
connections and experiences. The conversation also touches upon AI-generated
artwork, acknowledging its value as a tool but noting the lack of personal touch.
Denis raises concerns about a society overly dependent on technology and
emphasizes the significance of human skills and self-reliance.


[00:00:00] Andrew Liew Weida: Yeah. I guess you mentioneda large language model with the advent of a better ui opening our change pt,
it's enable us to work more efficiently and it frees up a lot of our time to
think about it more creatively.

[00:00:14] Andrew Liew Weida: And do you think that thatis the beauty of like large language model packet in a simple user friendly
interface that in the near future people just gonna use it so much to do this
kind of work that you just mentioned and. If we have more time to think about
something new or something creative, okay,

[00:00:33] Denis Rothman: let's be realistic.

[00:00:35] Denis Rothman: Okay? Okay. I'm gonna give yousome statistics, okay? These are not nice statistics, , because I'm an expert,
I'm an expert, I'm not influencer, okay? On LinkedIn. I've never received a
penny for anything I post even on opioid. I'm not an influencer. I'm not a
consultant. I'm an expert. Experts are not nice people.

[00:00:55] Denis Rothman: They're nice to talk to, butthey're not nice people. So [00:01:00] let's berealistic, okay? Yes, the expert has to be a realist. Otherwise, the CEO over
corporation will just kick you out in five minutes. If you start, say, Hey,
okay, what's the truth? You want the truth? Let's take statistics. In France.
Yes, in, in 1970, in this country, France, probably the same for all Western

[00:01:18] Denis Rothman: You had about. let's be nice.About a quarter of the population that had a high school diploma. Okay? That
you go to high school and you study and you get to age of 18 and you get a
degree. In most countries, it's about that age all over the world where you get
some kind of degree. That's 25%. Okay?

[00:01:37] Denis Rothman: In 90, in 2000, 22, 23, 90% getthe same degree, but this degree is worth nothing. Intellectually it is the
level, the intellectual is so low that there's nothing in there. There's no
thinking. People make spelling mistakes. They don't have to think. The, so the
level is now the master degree.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Denis Rothman: Yes. So the master degree inFrance is the reference. If you go try to get a job as a computer scientist
with your high school diploma you won't get a job. Okay? You. You say, I just,
I'm 18, I studied 18 years. Give me a job. I doubt you'll get a job in
something sophisticated in 1970. You could get a job even with less than that,
or a job with just two years of college Today it's the master degree is the

[00:02:26] Denis Rothman: Okay. And the master degree inFrance takes about five years. So that is the equivalent of the intellectual
level of 1970. How many people have that kind of degree in France? With a real
degree. I'm not speaking about, I'm not I'm not gonna speak about degrees that
are worth nothing. I'm saying degrees where you get a job 25%.

[00:02:45] Denis Rothman: And if you go back a hundredyears, you'll still find 20% of the population that gets the good jobs and
that, so unfortunately, 75% of the population doesn't have, they don't have the
skills. to do what [00:03:00] you're talkingabout. How would they know how a transformer works? And then they're gonna ask
questions about sophisticated questions that are master degree level.

[00:03:09] Denis Rothman: No, not many. So when you'respeaking about creativity we're reaching a social problem here is technol, is technology
happiness. Because right now in my house, I have people, I have a painter. This
guy is a happy person. He doesn't have a high school diploma. He doesn't even
come from France. Okay? He works for a company, he has a salary.

[00:03:31] Denis Rothman: He's a legal person fromanother country. He's a great person. He doesn't have all these degrees. When I
talk to him, it's, I have a nice time. He hasn't even watched tv. So in the
evening, I say, what do you do? I go with friends. We have a meal and listen to
music. I say you're a happy person. He said, yeah, I'm a happy person.

[00:03:50] Denis Rothman: and he's very happy. He'salways smiling, he's always wanting to do something. He doesn't have a high
school diploma. He doesn't know what chat g p t is. He [00:04:00]doesn't know what AI is for. He doesn't go on social media. He doesn't care.
He's living a real happy life and his salary because since people want, don't
want to do these jobs, little by little, his salary is reaching the level of an
engineer in France because pe since people don't want to do the job, you a
plumber can earn more than an engineer in many Western countries.

[00:04:22] Denis Rothman: Since no one wants to be aplumber, just call your plumber somewhere in France, you're gonna see how much
it costs. Or even if you didn't lock your door correctly, you call someone
that'd be $200 for him to come over or so what I'm saying is we have to go back
to basic philosophy and social problem.

[00:04:40] Denis Rothman: It's not because you'recreative that you're happy. and it doesn't make you, if you look at the lives
of Mozart, Beethoven, these people weren't happy and they were the best
creators in the history of Van Gogh. Every fund's buying these paintings, look
at his life. Okay? So create, being creative doesn't make you happy.

[00:04:59] Denis Rothman: [00:05:00]Using these artificial intelligence doesn't make you happy, makes you more
efficient. Yeah. So if you wanna be efficient, then you can use artificial
intelligence. If you wanna be happy, you better turn your computer off. , you
better go see you, better go see your friends, your family. And if you still
have parents, go see your parents.

[00:05:16] Denis Rothman: That'll make you happy. Butartificial intelligence never make you happy. And there's this confusion now
between being creative and being happy. So yeah, you're an artificial
intelligence and you worked for corporations, and you are all these books and
you're so creative, you're a genius. And I say, yeah, so what I mean, People in
my neighborhood, everyone in my neighborhood around me doesn't care about
artificial intelligence.

[00:05:41] Denis Rothman: They don't care. They do. Theysay, Dennis, why didn't come over have a drink? Why don't only have a meal, but
just don't talk about your work. Okay. And the air era is to think that being
creative makes you happy or opens your mind. You don't have to have a open,
they're very creative people that have a very [00:06:00]close mind.

[00:06:00] Denis Rothman: They just, they're verycreative but in destruction, they can build, you have very creative people
building tanks, missiles machine guns and they're making strategies with
satellites. How can we blow up this country? How can we blow up this city? Or
how can we sell more of warships to bother this country?

[00:06:19] Denis Rothman: Yeah, that's creativity. Andit's, and a very high level, the highest in the history of humanity. We have
developed weapons beyond the. Beyond our imagination. That doesn't make us
happy. So we have to separate being creative, open-minded, and think of it's
not because you're thinking of something else, that you're thinking of
something else.

[00:06:39] Denis Rothman: Good. . So what I'm saying isartificial and a tool to be very efficient. Very, it's efficient, but it won't
replace anything that's human. If you go I remember, I'll give you an image.
Yeah. Two images. I re I like museums. Yes. Because it's, and people say when
they, maybe you talk to people and they go to the museum and say, oh there [00:07:00] all, there are so many people I couldn'tsee the painting.

[00:07:02] Denis Rothman: No. I sit down cuz I go oftento the same museums. I sit down and I watch the people because the people are
in it. Are as interesting as the paintings. These paint, I know these
paintings. I've been to Paris, I know Del and I know all these paintings I've.
. When I was a student, I lived next to Del Nuva.

[00:07:19] Denis Rothman: I went there almost, I wouldsay, three or four times a week. So what I do is I watch the people and I
notice like two people that really struck me. One is a Japanese tourist. In the
and she was standing there, I was drawing, in fact a painting of Van Gogh cuz I
like to draw instead of taking pictures, you remember them better and you're
feeling better.

[00:07:43] Denis Rothman: And she came along and she'sjust a Japanese tourist and people say, yeah, Japanese tourist. Yeah. And she
stood there and she was trying to figure out why I was looking at this
painting. And she stood there for five minutes. So I backed off and I sat down
and I looked at her and little by [00:08:00]little I saw her face lit up.

[00:08:01] Denis Rothman: She was seeing the light inthis masterpiece. Now you're saying this is one masterpiece looking at another
masterpiece. She was a masterpiece too. A human being is a masterpiece looking
at another masterpiece, because in fact, ven Gogh did a lot of reproductions of
kishi, the Japanese painter. And he uses a lot of the techniques.

[00:08:22] Denis Rothman: And so little by little she'ssaying, ah, that's Japanese, the way he put that tree in the foreground and
all. And that's, and she was lighting up only a human. So human beings are
masterpieces. She's a masterpiece. And then in this other exhibition, I couldn't
approach the painting. There was so many paintings.

[00:08:41] Denis Rothman: So I just sat down and I beganto draw the people looking at the painting. And I saw this man with an old
suit. He was coming out, an employee coming out of, I don't know where, but you
could see that the pants were reaching, the shoes that were not, the pants
weren't new, the shoes weren't, But you could [00:09:00]see his face so happy looking at the painting.

[00:09:01] Denis Rothman: So another masterpiece I sawtwo masterpieces. What does this have to do with artificial intelligence?
Beauty, masterpieces, humanity wonder happiness, love. That's not a machine
that's a human being. So artificial intelligence is a fantastic tool but it's
like thinking your hammer is gonna make you happy.

[00:09:23] Denis Rothman: you screwdriver .

[00:09:24] Andrew Liew Weida: I I recall, if I recollectcorrectly, I think recently all this art pieces, whether is it music or even
drawings, can be done using artificial intelligence. And yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:37] Denis Rothman: Look at my post on LinkedIntoday. Yeah. And you will see I posted about a few pictures that I did with

[00:09:44] Denis Rothman: The algorithm. Yeah. And you'llnotice that there's a boat there's a boat. If you look at it, there's a boat
that I generated and my wife said I like that boat. I don't like what you're
doing. I don't like artificial, I don't like artificial intelligence at all. [00:10:00] Cause she's a real French person thatlikes family people.

[00:10:04] Denis Rothman: She's not interested in allthat. She likes, she listens to me talk but she's not listening. In fact, she
said, but I like that boat. I like that ship. And I would like you to make a
real painting cuz that's not a real painting. I want to, because it doesn't
have your touch. Cuz she knows how I paint. It doesn't, there's no personality
in there.

[00:10:22] Denis Rothman: There's no personality. It's areproduction, but it's not an expression. Okay? It's not an expression of who
you are. Because when people look at my paintings, they say, oh, Dennis painted
that. . But if you look at that's nothing. It's just a re there's no there's no
body in it. It's like a photocopy of your mind.

[00:10:40] Denis Rothman: It's just assembling differentthing, but it's not creation.

[00:10:43] Andrew Liew Weida: It's interesting. Let'stalk about that top, because there's one part. What when you write something or
send the message to Dali to create that image of that piece of boat. And if you
were to use your hand and take a, like a tool, a paintbrush with some [00:11:00] colors and paint it on a canvas, is if youthink from the perspective, both of them actually comes from your mind.

[00:11:06] Andrew Liew Weida: The only difference is oneis generated by a computer, which is the device. The other mine is generated
from a tool brush in your hand. Yeah, I agree.

[00:11:13] Denis Rothman: I do all three. Sometimes Ilike to play around with deli to, to get pictures Yeah. That I print and people
like them. So I say, okay, why don't I just write made by deli and I just offer
it to them.

[00:11:27] Denis Rothman: I like to do that. Then I likealso to do part of dally, cuz we can put a mask in it. It'll only give you part
and then I complete it with the painting and the, I complete it drawing and all
that. So I it, so it can be 100% dally or just 50%. And I say, why don't I, it
gave me a lot of good ideas.

[00:11:46] Denis Rothman: Why don't, with these ideasbuild something quickly different? So of course, but notice that every phase
here, I describe it as a tool. It's not the essence of who I am. It can never
be what I am. [00:12:00] It's only a toolresponding to either the past word I'm telling it. So you're still describing
it as a digital paintbrush, but it's not the essence of a person.

[00:12:11] Denis Rothman: The essence of a person issomething different. And if you want the essence, you'll not reach it with deli
you won't be able to give your essence with deli, no matter how you write the
test. text. It's not your essence of, it's not as like my brother-in-law. The
doctor. Yeah. Yeah. He's a sculpture also.

[00:12:29] Denis Rothman: Yeah. And the way he makesthese sculptures, cuz he's seen human beings suffer. A doctor is not just a
doctor with a nice car in a big house. These people died. These people died
from bad things. So the pa, the faces he makes with his hands, cuz he touches
people all day. So he knows exactly how it is.

[00:12:48] Denis Rothman: He knows everything in hisbody. You look at these sculptures and you say, oh wow, I see what he's talking
about. That's the essence of a human being. You can try to do it dally, but it
won't have the [00:13:00] value is it?

[00:13:00] Andrew Liew Weida: Because like we humanbeings. , like true ancient time two, today we are so used to value things that
is made by the human hand rather than using a digital paintbrush or digital

[00:13:13] Andrew Liew Weida: Adding audio.

[00:13:14] Denis Rothman: Yeah. I'll tell you why, I'lltell you why. Suppose you get all this beautiful world we're talking about AI
Dali people don't paint anymore, they just use Dally. Okay? People don't talk
anymore. They're just using large language model. They don't do math anymore
because all that's done and they're just sitting in their house eating pizzas.

[00:13:33] Denis Rothman: They ordered with Amazon or Idon't know, they're delivered by u Uber or okay. Or and they just ordered books
and they're just all day. You have all this free time and then all of a sudden
there's no more electricity. You get an electricity shortage, something
happens. There's something called solar radiation storm.

[00:13:53] Denis Rothman: Okay, so you get this bigclimate event that has nothing to do with climate change. Nothing. [00:14:00] Okay? It's just an event. In fact, NASAhas a site that I look at every day that loo, solar eruptions and everything.
If a big one comes along, it can disrupt the whole electromagnetic six system
of the world.

[00:14:13] Denis Rothman: For example, we could bewithout electricity for two months. So all this beautiful world and who's going
to survive? The guy that goes fishing on Sunday, he's he doesn't have internet.
He's gonna go fishing and get some fish. And in the winter he goes hunting, so
I'll go get some meat. And they said electricity.

[00:14:31] Denis Rothman: He said I don't care. Where'sthe problem? I, I don't watch really tv. I don't have a computer. And I draw
too. I like to draw. I have a piece of paper and I do these drawings. I can
draw and I have this old piano. It's not, it's out of tune, but I can play it.
No electricity.

[00:14:49] Denis Rothman: Oh, no problem for me for twomonths, even six months if you want, because I go get vegetables in my garden
and my neighbor has some, my neighbor has some chickens. So if I give them some
carrots, [00:15:00] they'll give me somechickens. And if I give him a nice drawing for his daughter, he'll give me some
more of some more food.

[00:15:06] Denis Rothman: And so who will survive? Peoplewho know how to use their hands. , who won't survive? People who are dependent
on computer. Because once you're dependent, are you free? Who are you? What if
I set your thing off? What are you gonna do? Dang. What if I shut this off?
What if you don't get the internet? What's gonna happen if someone goes under
the sea and doesn't blow nor stream up, but just cuts an internet cable off?

[00:15:32] Denis Rothman: No internet? Whoa, look at thebank system. There's no bank system. That's why it's not cut off because
everyone that does things legally or behind sanctions or in sanctions uses this
it's a common, it's a common system for the, for good and bad. So what do you
do then? Who will survive if there's only that?

[00:15:52] Denis Rothman: That's a

[00:15:52] Andrew Liew Weida: very top provoking momentthat, that, that got me thinking because I always like to ask my guests like
typically there's [00:16:00] two schools oftaught, which is Jack Ma say, is that artificial intelligence will create a
greater good rest. Elon Ma always say that we need to worry about AI because it
will eventually be like a terminator.

[00:16:10] Andrew Liew Weida: Now that you say you createalmost El, Elon

[00:16:13] Denis Rothman: Musk is a genius, right? ElonMusk is a one of, I would say the biggest geniuses in the twen 20th and 21st
century. But he's an industrial in genius industrial. He's very good. and
building cars, building spaceships in certain parts of software. He's a genius.

[00:16:35] Denis Rothman: But in philosophy, no, he'szero. He doesn't, okay. It's not because Mozart was a genius in music. Yeah.
That he was a rocket scientist, and it's not because Elon is very good at the
rocket scientist, but he's good in philosophy. People think that, oh, you're a
doctor, so maybe you can help me repair my computer, or artificial

[00:16:55] Denis Rothman: Can you operate my grandmother?Because no. Isn't it he is a genius. It's a [00:17:00]unquestionable. He's a he's comparable to Thomas Edison. Yeah. Because he's the
only of these big corporations that does something physical. He delivers cars.
It's not Facebook, blah, blah, blah. No. He delivers cars, he delivers rockets.

[00:17:14] Denis Rothman: He deliver. He's making hyper.He's an industrial genius, but he's. He's an as a philosopher, he's worth
nothing. He's not a philosopher, he's not a priest. He's not a fu, he's
nothing, he's just a genius industrialist. It's like saying, oh, Einstein was
good in physics. Why didn't he write symphonies?

[00:17:32] Denis Rothman: That's strange. Why didn't hewrite? No, he's a, you're a genius in one field, but you're not a genius
everywhere. So you, so artificial intelligence is a fantastic tool. Yeah. And
there's nothing to worry about humans.